I’m starting a thread here so we can keep up the discussion on progressions from Kelly’s dinner and drinks chat with us last night (10.26). I for one found my interest in secondary progressions reinvigorated, and I don’t think I was the only one! I thought we could share thoughts, current progressions, experiences, or anything else relevant.
There’s a relevant lecture on progression theory in our Downloads section by Robert Blaschke, which might be cool to listen to if you want more. That’s on my list today
As for my personal progression happenings, in the past couple years, I’ve had my progressed Mars move into Libra, my progressed ascendant move into Virgo, and my progressed Mercury station direct. As I mentioned last night, when my progressed Mercury stationed direct is when I buckled down and started seriously studying astrology, and as my progressed Mercury picks up speed, I definitely feel myself picking up some speed in that area of life and finding my way in many ways. For example, Mercury rules my 11th house natally, and I find myself making more and more connections with people in the astro community as time goes on, and it’s picking up rather quickly now.
As far as my progressed ascendant moving into Virgo, I’m pretty sure I feel that. It’s not that I care less about how I look (Leo ascendant is still there, lol), but it’s like I feel less like being super glamorous, and more like looking like myself. I find myself trying to make my makeup in particular really functional, and making sure it realistically looks great in real life at every angle, rather than just looking great in a photo. That’s a kind of superficial example, but that vibe has permeated many other parts of my life and how I feel about myself and my physical container. More down to earth in a lot of ways.
As for progressed Mars moving into Libra, ugh. That’s a bummer and I kind of don’t know what to say about it other than that. More on that later, I guess? 😛
Looking forward to seeing everyone’s experiences! I have some people I do chart work for, and I’m definitely going to be revisiting their charts to have a look at their progressions. I’ve been stuck on time lord techniques, and I’m excited to see how this layer of work confirms, denies, or supports what I’ve found with those techniques.
Thank you Jo for starting this thread and sharing your thoughts 🙂
(These are more or less rambling thoughts)
I also really enjoyed the talk last night but I have to say it also made me a bit depress about the state of Mercury in my chart. I have been using progression with clients for the last 2 years but I never really pay too much attention to my own chart except for the progressed Moon change.
I kinda new in the back of my mind that I had a progressed Mercury retrograde in Scorpio but I think I had filed it out of site (how fitting).
Here is the thing: I have a natal Mercury in Libra in the 12th conjunct Pluto and I made peace with that a few years ago. But last night I realised that I have Mercury in Scorpio retrograde in the 12th by progression (my progressed ascendant is Sagittarius) and that it will remain retrograde until I am 47 in 2027. I will also have a progressed Sun in Scorpio for most of my life since I was born with the Sun in early Libra. All that happening in the 12th house both natal and progressed Sun and Mercury.
I love writing and I always did. I was also told by a palm reader when I was 19 that I would be a famous writer once I retire and that idea stuck with me. Now to discover that Mercury will be retrograde for most of my ”adult” life until I am 47 which also coincide with her predictions is vquite interesting but it is also the realisation that I will have to work in the ”dark” for another 10 years haha.
It is hard not to fall in the self-pity boat when you reside in the 12th house and have a natal Sun in Libra (its fall!) conjunct Saturn. I am not looking for re-assurance or anything of that sort. I have decided a long time ago that I would not entertain darkness in my life. I use to read all of the existentialist authors in my early 20’s which brought me to the edge of my life very quickly. Not in a suicidal sense but in a : fuck it I’m going to live to the max, get drunk, travel, throw out all of my belongings of the bridge, steal, fuck the system ect…
The 12th house is not a pretty sight and it can be quite crippling. And the traditional interpretation of that house are such a big bummer. I like to think that my mind is healthy and that my reasoning abilities are sound but if I didn’t know me and saw my chart I would think: ”This person has mental illness FOR SURE!!” Plus I have had a lot of clients with Sun in the 12th that struggle with mental illness.
But I like my life and my mind! And I don’t think I have mental illness.
I’m going off on a tangent here but I think the point I want to make is that maybe the 12th house is more about the fear of what ifs?? Sometime knowing is worst. Astrology is my passion but am I making weird assumptions about myself based on the analysis of my chart??!! Or worst, am I limiting myself because of my knowledge??!!
I wouldn’t be able to tell you because I have such a big blind spot! ( haha..jk)
For now, all that progressed and natal action in the 12th means… living off the grid… at the edge of the world… practicing astrology.
Why so hard on the 12th? Maybe it’s your Leo ascendant preferring the spotlight, and the Saturn conjunct sun having high expectations for recognition for your hard work. I’ve never seen 12th as a “bad” thing, personally. I’ve got the sun there (6 degrees before the ascendant which is in the same sign, but my God, if anyone can vouch for the importance of that boundary it’s me and anyone who knows me well! no 1st-house sun here! take That, traditional! :p ), but I relish it, just because I don’t care for admiration. So, figure out how you can get that admiration and recognition you need in behind-the-scenes ways. People can gossip about how great you are, even if you’re not personally looking out at all of them at once. 🙂
Hi Chloe! I think you are confusing Jo’s Leo ascendant for mine! I’m Scorpio rising 🙂
oh! haha, you must be right. anyway, saturn/sun wants recognition at the very least, as you seem to. 12th offers you an opportunity to put your ego aside and consider who “you” are in the first place, why you’re here, what greater existence you might be serving by being here. you can’t counsel people on 12th house matters if you think so badly about it! so, it’s a good thing you’ll be dealing with it a while longer! hehe..
Elodie, thanks for sharing all that!
The traditional 12th house significations ARE a super bummer, that’s for sure. However, I don’t think a heavily loaded 12th house or other 12th house issues are a recipe for mental illness across the board. With awareness and strategies for remediation for the less savory 12th house stuff, it’s completely manageable. It sounds like you’re in a place where you’ve made peace with this part of your chart, which is wonderful. Although I can see why you’d feel a little bummed out by your progressed Mercury in the the progressed 12th, and the realization that it won’t be direct until you’re 47. Really interesting how that seems to match up with what the palm reader told you, too.
Can I ask about your natal Venus placement? I ask because that’s the ruler of your natal Mercury. What about your progressed Mars placement, since it’s ruling your progressed Mercury now?
Also, with your client work, do you mostly refer back to natal houses, or do you use the progressed houses according to the progressed ascendant?
Yes Sun-Saturn definitely want recognition. You picked up on that. I also have a Sun in Libra and Moon in Taurus ruled by Venus in Leo and a North Node in Leo so you DEFINITELY picked up on that haha!
It is not so much that I think badly of the 12th house (I like the idea of it being the house of hidden matters, secrets, the occult, isolation and remote places) but *in general the traditional interpretations are terrible. Mercury retrograde in the 12th in traditional interpretations are usually not that great either.
When I started studying astrology it was modern astrology and I was using Placidus House calculation which put my Sun in the 11th. It is only in the last year with my studies of traditional and Hellenistic astrology that I am exploring the traditional signification of the houses (which are very rich btw and make a lot of sense astronomically.) I moved to the Whole Sign House system which brought my Sun in the 12th house. This is also an ongoing exploration and not my final conclusion but I am getting a lot more from the traditional techniques these days especially in regards to predictive work.
I do counsel people with 12th house placement. Of course I would not present it in this way. The thoughts above are meant for my astrology collegues and not clients. 🙂
There are alot more to the 12th house then self-undoing and darkness but it is in there.
Answering to Jo:
Venus in Leo conjunct North Node in the 10th ruler of Mercury in Libra in the 12th. That’s why I know that I will most likely be ok eventually and probably get recognition but it might also happen only after my death: Part of Fortune in the 8th in Gemini ruled by that 12th house Mercury. *and of course I am making wild prediction here and i do not necessarily adhere to it entirely.
I have natal Mars in Scorpio rising. Progressed Mars is in Sagittarius.
With clients, I usually refer back to natal house
omg i wrote a long response i don’t even remember, navigated away from the page for a moment and it’s all gone! so strange. just a warning to others, in case i did nothing wrong! here’s what i remember:
was taught by john marchesella (who tutored me a few times) to use prog to natal only, like Kelly and many do. have since found from personal experience prog to prog to be Extremely precise for predictions. I still don’t understand why prog moon to prog sun aspects (aka phases) should be used but not prog to prog other stuff. doesn’t make sense to me, and practice has borne fruit in that respect.
i use minor aspects like semi-sq and sesqui-quad. I have enough awful confusion in my own chart with mercury/inconjuncts to hesitate at even considering inconjuncts in addition to that as Alia said she does, but will definitely incorporate them eventually. Inconjuncts could even simply manifest as (i suppose?) “confusion/inability to choose/a need to choose both options but not simultaneously/a need for humility concerning the different elements involved.” something like that. i wonder about Alia’s experience.
i use solar arcs as “general energy” happening.. not precise, though i haven’t done thorough research (aka asking enough people for their exact experience regarding SA aspects occurring at certain specific times). but, for instance, i’ll have SA mars (which rules my 7th, traditionally) conjunct my ruler venus exactly in a few months i think, so, if nothing specifically happens within a week or two of that exactness, i’ll have more reason to assume that using SA as a general yearly trend might be better.
transits to progressions definitely relevant in my observation, especially, as kelly said, if there’s a “triple whammy” of influence (as some would say, like nancy anne hastings), meaning a few similarly-themed events involved at the same time. don’t ignore, for instance, eclipses to progressed planets.
solar arc (which is primary progressions, i believe) to prog? not sure. transits to solar arc? definitely seems like a long shot and vague, but who knows!! i don’t like to rule things out; i want us to study them. perhaps we could all take a few days to do a lot of research and gather it all together 🙂
interested now in learning and researching how relevant converse and tertiary progressions are, and testing tertiary to tertiary or tertiary to natal (or even tertiary to prog!!). anyone have experience with any of this? (tertiary is day to lunar month, secondary is day to solar year, primary is just solar arc, no? every point moves the same degree as the sun)
to anyone with experience with tertiary: in astro.com, there’s a “time period.’ Say i want to know about tomorrow’s (oct 28) tertiary stuff going on for me. i’m given a range spanning a lunar month, for instance: “oct 21 to nov 18.” can you Get In There (maybe with solar fire) to oct 28 by, for instance (since 29days / 28-21=7 days = about 1/4, aka divide the day by 4 and at the 1/4 mark, like 6 actual hours after the tertiary start day given) adding 6 hours to the start tertiary time (maybe even the natal chart time)? it would make sense, no? i wonder why we’re given a time period.
converse– if anyone has experience with clients born between solar/lunar eclipses, for instance, i’m curious whether converse progressions would reveal any events. for that matter, move your chart backwards (or look in the ephemeris and count the years to certain ages). does it seem relevant to you?
good question re: prog vs natal rulers of secondary prog angles vs natal angles. definitely haven’t done enough research on this one. it’s a good thing traditional and modern agrees on the 2 angles, if not the other house cusps, or even traditional vs modern rulerships! kelly seemed to indicate she uses traditional rulers only. i *think* chris brennan has said he uses modern rulers as well as traditional, but i’m not 100% sure. (i personally look at both, and don’t ascribe to solely one or the other yet. Jen Kunz *i think* has said she believes traditional rulers are the outer event experiences, and modern rulers are the inner event experiences. (my memory might be slightly off, but it’s what i recall)
About progression* the most revealing observation so far for me has been the progressed lunar cycle. Especially the New and Full Moon. It always seem to coincide with other important transits going on which adds a nice layer. I think that just that alone is super revealing. As for the more advance techniques, I need to research more.
I’m fairly certain Kelly and Chris use traditional rulerships exclusively 🙂
I’m not sure about tertiary on astro.com, but you can use the Animate feature in Solar Fire to get really specific with all kinds of progressions!
Regarding transits to progressions, I think this is a case where the Rule of Three is definitely very relevant to keep in mind! I tend to start with annual profections to see which planet[s] are activated, see what’s going on with that planet in transits, and then add progressions as an overlay to that. I’ve seen activated planets that are doing things both by transit to natal and transit to progressed be significant, as well as transits to the activated progressed planet being significant, if you have stacking going on (see hits via progression, transit, profection, etc). This of course needs more research on my end, but I think there’s something there!
And I agree with Elodie on the progressed Moon phase as well. I think it’s a simple way to have a relevant backdrop to everything else going on by transit and progression for sure.
ok yeah chris mainly just uses outer planets for transits and natal (not rulerships), and not so much progressions because the time lord technique takes up enough focus in itself. (he’s very accessible, i just asked :p )
this reminds me- within the past 2 years i’ve had prog venus (my natal ruler) square natal saturn, then prog saturn, and prog venus square natal pluto, then prog pluto (most of my planets are retrograde in my natal, and pluto/saturn are conjunct). I noticed ALL to be relevant and correspond with outer events, including pluto and progressed pluto. prog to natal vs prog to prog were like exact repeats of the same kind of event!
so i just looked up the exact days for me of prog venus to prog pluto, prog venus to natal pluto, prog venus to prog saturn, and… prog venus hasn’t hit natal saturn yet.
prog venus to natal pluto was a Super hard time period (also exactly when transiting nodes were square my nodes); i literally was longing for suicide, the months around then (my saturn conjunct pluto, mars, taurus and capricorn stuff always forges ahead regardless of difficulty). the exact square corresponded with a culmination (a breakup of a codependent relationship was involved, but some very disturbing other stuff too, not involving career) leading to asking for help right then in desperation (i asked my mom to come up, drop everything going on in her life and help me out- the first time i’d ever asked for her help with anything) and it was helpful, ultimately, despite all our own pluto/saturn hardships between us (pluto rules my 7th and saturn my 10th).
prog venus to prog pluto was a breakup; similar themes but not Nearly so desperate a time (the transiting nodes square my venus/nodes really must have contributed, plus chiron/jupiter on that transiting nodal axis. hard to distinguish the effects). pluto (ruler of my natal 7th) meant this involved another breakup and a love triangle of sorts (to the Day), but it wasn’t a serious relationship, and i wasn’t wrenched out of myself in complete desperation like i was with prog venus sq natal pluto. With prg to natal, it was more an Inner feeling; the outer “events” occurred earlier. Breakup a month or so before, mom visiting was exact (but occurred at the bottom of my tether aka the only way was up, from there), and the outer stuff that led to the inner Feelings had built up over several months (not relationship based.. actually, this other stuff and my anxiety over it Led to an early breakup).
prog venus square prog saturn was exact the day of the breakup of a relationship involving someone i met through work. there were transits involved, but the predictive element of the prog to prog square was exact on the day, whereas the transits weren’t so much.
prog moon to prog sun 3rd quarter phase start aka closing square: 3 or so wks before breakup, increasing anxiety over other stuff (which helped lead to breakup).
when prog moon conjuncted my Natal moon (in the 9th in capricorn, which is also my MC), to the DAY it was the start of a whole new life for me. it pushed a teaching career opportunity onto my lap, all of a sudden, which i never Dreamed i could be capable of, given my stage fright and lowest of low self-esteem. I didn’t pay attn to progressions at the time, i only realized this in retrospect. (since then i’ve basically moved on, but this definitely opened up a new life to me for a while, and my future would be nothing without it.)
So! there’s a bit of consolidated information about prog to natal vs prog, to add to the.. bunch? let’s hear more!! 😀
Dinner and Drinks Afterparty: Progressions with Kelly Surtees
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